Randomer Thoughts v2

[dayraven]

all this though is on earth... on sakar, he was a might less capable. potent, but not continent-shattering strong.

and like he-man being tail-whipped back into adam, so hulk has had the banner knocked out of him from time to time... just saying homes, i know hulk's tough... and i know he gets tougher... but the guy's lost consistently to superman... and so has he-man. to me, that implies that they're within similar ranges of might. sure would help is mattel had ever give nus stats on the masters like marvel does... but i guess that's something you do for a property you love.

[Ebonhorn]

all this though is on earth... on sakar, he was a might less capable. potent, but not continent-shattering strong.

SAKAAR IS WEAR HE HELD THE PLANET FROM RIPPING APART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.incrediblehulkonline.com/pla ... ength.html

so there goes that argument.

[dayraven]

yes, but on earth, the mind-control slug wouldn't have pierced his skin. and he was cut and injured frequently, by a large variety of weapons. 'sides... he-man did it first http://www.toplessrobot.com/2010/03/the ... he-man.php

i would also point out that while hulk no longer has an untransformed state, at one point he did... in mortal form, bruce banner needed help opening a jar of peanut butter... in mortal form prince adam did this

[Tekwych]

So this is a WTF and not a rub it in your face but on this, my second to last day off before Christmas, I have all the windows and doors open to enjoy 58 degree weather. This on the 13th of December?!?

[dayraven]

thank MN for sucking up all the winter right now... i'm close enough we woke up today to 4 degrees. 4. that's not even a real number, the correct temperature was "JESUS CORNHOLED MOHAMMED ON HORSEBACK IT'S COLD!!!!"

so let me ask this DC fans... who is the baddest hand to hand combatant in the DCU? marvel is kind of addled on this, cuz they'd say on paper that guy's like wolverine, w/ over a century of experience, is amongst the best, but then guy's like thor, hercules, tryco slatterus, romulus, ares, should be literally 100X better, simply due to time on task... deadpool, back in the liefeld era, was supposed to be one of the best, but now he's more comic character than assassin. i wuld think of the mundane heroes that shang chi would be the tops for marvel, w/ wolvie and DP probably pulling top tier of the mutants, and thor most likely the top of the heap for the cosmic level beings... though why he'd be more skilled than ares or tryco is beyond me. poor tryco, if you read his powers and personality, he should by rights be a serious asskicker... yet, he stories he's appeared in turn him into a fop who is bound to single fighting style, and really seems only marginally talented at that... it doesn't fit his perosnality and background, but that's how he gets played.

[NoisyDvL5]

who is the baddest hand to hand combatant in the DCU?

I'd go roughly in this order...

Lady Shiva
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
Richard Dragon
Black Canary
Bronze Tiger
The Sensei
Batman
Nightwing
Damian Wayne
Connor Hawke

There's no dispute about Shiva really because that's essential to her character. She punk'd Richard Dragon (The previous guy to whom it was essential). Batgirl II was trained from birth and has beaten Shiva in combat. I think them as the top two is not really disputable.

Black Canary has been put in the Shiva mythos of late (along with the new White Canary) and Gail Simone has been writing her in a way that she's moving up the list. Ten years ago she'd be a lot lower. She's definitely in the group with Bronze Tiger & Richard Dragon for sure.

Some folks would surely bristle at me putting Batman so far down because their life depends on him being awesome, but Batman's got a lot of other ways to beat you. He's capable in all areas, but not necessarily the single best in each.

There's plenty more that might find their way in the lower half of that top ten: Catman, Azrael, KGBeast, Ra's AL Ghul, O-Sensei, Drakon, Deathstroke, David Cain, Question, I-Ching, Red Hood, Robin, Ravager, any of the Manhunters... I could go on.

If you want to go Metas, it's Karate Kid from the Legion by a mile or two.

[Ebonhorn]

I can't disagree with this list....although you could put Wildcat in his Prime on that list.

[dayraven]

like karate kid, give me some "this is what puts him at the top" list.

as for bats, let's be honest, you have what, four of his pupils on the list? he's gotta be pretty damned good... plus, hasn't he beat wholesale bronze tiger ass? but yes, i agree, not necessarily the best... but shouldn't deathstroke be higher? i thought that was a big nail he hung his hat on? so, i'm off for dc wiki lady shiva...

[NoisyDvL5]

You'll have to ask Tek for specifics on KK, he's a Legion character. Thinking about it, he might not even be a Meta, just the "master of all forms of martial arts ever". And since he's from 1000 years ahead of time, that would include anything anyone else on the list knows. I'm still going to hold him off the Top 10 since he's not contemporary (like Ebon points out Wildcat would've been the go-to GA fighter along with Doc Mid-Nite strangely).

On Batman, I was just warning that outside of my little bastion here, there will be folks that put him at no. 1 and think it warrants it no further discussion. As for his training, he gets props for Dick & Tim, but not Damian or Cassandra were trained by the League of Assassins and Cain/Shiva respectively.

On Deathstroke, the meta tag applies because he's Cap gone bad, but I really don't think of him in the Top 10 since he regularly gets taken down by Nightwing and Nightwing is towards the end.

[dayraven]

the dc wiki said cassie received additional training from batman... but indeed, no to the damien wayne... so three, instead of four. got me. oh, i was wrong on bronze tiger too, he beat batman...

though this got me thinking, shouldn't diana be on the list?